As delivered - provisional transcript
Dr John Chipman
Thank you very much. We will move straight to a debate and discussion. Deputy Prime Minister Najib needs to leave soon for a bilateral, so if anyone has a question for him, please ask it now. I will go for these questions first.
Barry Desker
Thank you, John. Despite ASEAN’s efforts to coordinate international disaster relief assistance, it could be argued that Myanmar’s handling of the humanitarian crisis arising from Cyclone Nargis has undermined Myanmar’s international standing, especially as Myanmar is the current chair of ASEAN’s Committee on Disaster Relief and Humanitarian Assistance. My question to Minister Najib is: do you think that this would have any impact on the implementation of the ASEAN charter, especially ASEAN’s commitment to good governance and humanitarian relief?
I also have a question to Minister Myint. Since ASEAN countries were prepared to provide assistance, using military vessels, military aircraft, helicopters, and so on, why did Myanmar not agree to a role by ASEAN militaries in disaster relief. My second question is: has the critical ASEAN response, especially in Indonesia and Thailand, resulted in some disenchantment with ASEAN? I see that, over the past week, there has been talk in Myanmar of joining the South Asian Regional grouping of SAARC?
Kishore Mahbubani
I did get the permission of Deputy Prime Minister Najib to ask him a difficult question. Deputy Prime Minister, you referred several times to the need to protect the sovereignty of nation states. However, as you know, in the UN, the concept of sovereignty, which is still alive, is being balanced by the concept of responsibility to protect, which is that the international community now has an obligation to intervene if governments fail to protect their own population. What do you think should be ASEAN’s reaction to this growing internationally-accepted responsibility to protect?
Dr John Chipman
Are there any other questions specific to Deputy Prime Minister Najib?
Fleur de Villiers
I have a brief question to the Deputy Prime Minister. Do you believe that, for example, in situations that arose in the wake of the cyclone in Myanmar, that relief should be solely directed through the agency of ASEAN?
Narendra Singh Sisodia
Mr Deputy Prime Minister, you mentioned about the setting up of a regional disaster relief coordination centre. I was wondering whether in the context of climate change and extreme weather events, you would consider expanding its mandate to include four things. Firstly, to undertake detailed studies of the regional and local impacts of climate change. Presently only scenarios have been built for different parts of the world. Secondly, for forecasting and the timely dissemination of information for alerts and warning. Thirdly, training for interoperability. Would it be possible to include these functions so they can be more effective for handling cases of extreme weather events?
Deputy Prime Minister Najib
First of all, frankly speaking – and my colleague, the Deputy Minister of Defence of Myanmar is sitting next to me – certainly from ASEAN’s perspective, and I think I speak on behalf of my other colleagues as well, we certainly would like to see ASEAN being allowed to play a much bigger role. The situation is very serious in Myanmar. According to some of our people who are there on the ground, if aid does not reach the people who are really being affected, the scale of disaster could be even bigger than the tsunami in Aceh. I am not whether that if that is a correct assessment of the situation, but certainly it is one view that has been delivered to us by people who have been on the ground. Therefore, the scale of the human tragedy is something that we cannot take lightly. I think it would be only appropriate if ASEAN can be allowed to play a bigger role. We would also like to play a bigger role.
As I have said, the only viable organisation that can really act effectively is the military. I have had a bilateral with Robert Gates this morning. The US certainly have delivered a lot of aid to Rangoon, but from Rangoon to the people who really need the aid, you then have to talk in terms of providing helicopters, boats, and all the other logistical requirements which only military organisations can actually afford to provide as assistance.
At the risk of offending my colleague, I would speak on behalf of the ASEAN countries. We do want to play a bigger role in the context of the tragedy in Myanmar.
The other question is a tricky question. Mr Mahbubani is continuing his tradition of asking me difficult questions. Certainly in the context of ASEAN, we would not want the situation where we would be forced to override the question of sovereignty. That would be the last consideration. Effectively, on the ground, you need to have the support of the host country, to be realistic. You cannot simply override, no matter how strongly you feel about it. The government in question needs to support whatever assistance it is that you can or will provide for them.
The third question was whether it should solely be on ASEAN. My immediate answer is no, but realistically I think the Government of Myanmar feels more comfortable working with ASEAN. We could be the conduit to bring in more aid and assistance to Myanmar. We are certainly willing to play that role. However, in terms of actual assets on the ground, we may be short of asset. In terms of comfort level, I believe the Myanmar Government would be more comfortable dealing with ASEAN as a conduit to delivering assistance.
The final question was with regards to the ASEAN agreement on disaster management and emergency response. I see this as being more in operational terms. I do not think we should expand it to talk about studies of climate change. That should be taken by other forums. In terms of that kind of a set up, I would prefer to see it being more action oriented and operational rather than involved in studies, and so forth.
François Heisbourg
I would like to put a question to General Aye Myint. It is not about the immediate humanitarian emergency, but about the reconstruction aspects. The Myanmar Government has gone on the record about the sorts of sums of money it would like to see being allocated to the reconstruction effort: the sum of $1.5 billion has been mentioned. General, you indicate that foreign reconstruction aid will be accepted by your government if ‘no strings are attached.’ I happen to be a taxpayer in a potential donor country. I would very much wish to be enlightened by what you mean by ‘no strings attached.’ I note, as others have taken note, of the much-publicised statements from Myanmar about the direct delivery of aid to the concerned populations, notably the ‘infamous’ statement about foreign chocolate bars not being welcome. Please tell me: will the ‘chocolate bar rule’ apply to reconstruction aid? Do you expect great enthusiasm from foreign donors to play by the ‘chocolate bar rule’?
Pierre Lellouche
General Myint, it has been one month since the catastrophe hit your country. This is what the local press is saying about what is going on. We listened to you explaining all the good things that your government has done, but this is the suffering of your people. A lot of international aid is still waiting to enter your country. My country alone had a complete cargo ship with 1,000 tonnes of relief supply standing for three weeks in front of your coastline, and you refused to let it in because it is a military ship; as if France or anybody else was supposed to invade Myanmar and not help your population.
As a lawyer, I know that the UN Charter is built on the principle of non-interference in domestic affairs. However, as a lawyer, I also know that we had an evolution in international law. We voted a resolution recently to obligate people to help and assist their country or they can be punished. Somebody earlier made a reference to this. The principle of non interference in domestic affairs is not the right of regimes to have their populations killed in silence with nobody else able to interfere. Not only do I find this absolutely unjustifiable, but I am of the thinking that the international community has an obligation of preparing itself for such emergencies – and I commend Prime Minister Najib for proposing a regional centre – but in terms of international law, we should pass a resolution that says: ‘(a) there is a duty of the state to protect its citizens in case of emergencies; (b) there is a duty of the others to come to the help of the state that is a victim; (c) if the state that is a victim does not let help come in for capricious reasons then the leaders of that state should be liable to go to the international criminal court.
We need a system of sanctions to stop the scandal of having hundreds of thousands of people dying, with help waiting outside, and having a lecture about non-interference in domestic affairs. I am sorry to change the tone of this very polite international gathering, but I think it is my duty to do so. You can count on me to press my government to make sure that a resolution of that kind will be represented soon at the UN.
Sir Evelyn de Rothschild
I have a question which is partly a suggestion. Having been involved in a number of these disasters, by helping through various means, I always believe that you learn through them. With modern technology and the forecasting of the events of these hurricanes, typhoons or these ghastly events that event, I wonder – ‘forewarned forearmed’ is the saying – how much education is done in schools for children and for the future? It is interesting to note, having been brought up in the Second World War, we were all taught very carefully how to prepare for the event of a bomb or an explosion. Would it not be worthwhile thinking that, for the future, it should be a syllabus in schools to teach young people what they can do to help their own survival and the future of their own families in such events?
Christian Schmidt
I think the linkage between security and natural disasters is increasing. In the case of natural disasters, for example the earthquake in Pakistan, where two helicopters could be used in a short time to assist the rescue and humanitarian relief missions, and having seen how open the Chinese Government reacted in inviting the international community in assisting in the earthquake in recent weeks, knowing what has happened during the tsunami, there can only be concern about the situation in Myanmar. My personal concern has increased in hearing that there is a possibility of the idea of the Myanmar Government telling people to move back those who have been effected by the national disaster back to the Irrawaddy Delta. Given the infrastructure, how will these people survive? I do not think that the idea that frogs will be a possibility for nutrition for these people is sufficient.
I would hope that the international community would be given more access. We must realise that there are military structures which, in huge natural disasters, are the only ones that can deliver in due time. The international community is prepared.
I have another question to Dr Kellenberger. He is representing one of the oldest and most experienced humanitarian relief organisations. Knowing that the main issue is to get access to those under pressure in a conflict, from your position as an NGO, do you see that there is a need for getting some international rules to get the right to access in a natural disaster situation?
Masashi Nishihara
This is a question for Dr Kellenberger. It was an enlightening presentation. Thank you very much. The International Committee of the Red Cross is a unique organisation in the sense that it is a neutral and non-political organisation and therefore more easily accessible to a country that is suffering from difficulties, such as Myanmar. It has political sensitivities in accepting foreign countries coming in. This means that we can play a much larger role in complex emergencies than before. Therefore, if the ICRC is short of materials and means of transportations, it seems that the national armed forces of different countries can be asked by the ICRC to help with its activities. You mentioned something about the agreement between the ICRC and some governments, but what is your view about the increased role of ICRC over the usage of armed forces?
Dr John Chipman
There has been a great discussion in the last 10 minutes about international law, the interpretation of national law, and new norms. I will first draw attention to this morning’s press here in Singapore. It relayed discussions at the private ministerial lunch of the defence ministers attending the Shangri-La Dialogue, in which the ministers agreed that multilateral cooperation in humanitarian assistance in disaster relief could be guided by three principles. One, it is the responsibility of disaster-hit countries to quickly and effectively bring humanitarian relief to people in their territories. Two, where necessary they should facilitate the entry of humanitarian aid from other countries and international organisations. Three, any external help shall have the consent of the effective countries, and it should come over their overall control and supervision.
Now if you add principle ‘one’ to principle ‘two’, principle ‘one’ is that it is the responsibility of disaster-hit countries to quickly and effectively bring relief to their people, and ‘two’ is that ‘where necessary they should facilitate the entry…’ I wonder whether the ministers of defence meeting yesterday agreeing these two principles effectively brought in a new norm. The norm that people have normally talked about is the ‘responsibility to protect.’ This is an external responsibility to come in and protect other people. I believe this norm that has been described, by the ministers leading at the Shangri-La Dialogue, could be summarised as the ‘responsibility to invite,’ and that there is an emerging norm, perhaps, because of the nature of international discussions and activities, that might one day have some characteristic of international law and a ‘responsibility to invite’ if indeed these conditions are fulfilled. It is perhaps something that is worth debating when a country by itself cannot deal with a humanitarian emergency through its own resources. Do they have an emerging responsibility to invite others to do so? It is at least a question that is worth some debate.
First, Dr Jakob Kellenberger, and then finally the Minister for Myanmar.
Dr Jakob Kellenberger
Thank you for giving me the floor. It is special ground when ICRC has to talk on certain issues, especially the issue of sovereignty and the obligation to protect. I would say one thing very clearly, however. I have no problem with the principle of sovereignty, but I do understand that when we talk about sovereignty the first responsibility of a government is to look after the life and dignity of their own population. That seems to me self-evident, but extremely important.
When you say the ‘responsibility to protect’ or the ‘responsibility to invite’, I said in my talk, I have no difficulties in accepting and understanding that the government is concerned about who will be active. In a way, that is almost the ideal solution. We are not looking to do work in places where it is being done already because there are so many needs. I do understand that if you cannot do it, and if the lives or dignity of your people are at stake, then you must give the chance for others to do it. That is clear to me.
I wanted to say, as far as the ICRC is concerned, that I think it is fair to say that we have a slightly unique position, to the extent that we are not an NGO. We are a very specific international organisation with the mandate of all states. In fact, the Geneva Convention is ratified by all states. We can be a very useful actor. It is the reason why we are a main actor, if not the main actor, in conflict areas such as Darfur or Somalia, or in other complex areas.
As far as Myanmar is concerned, it is a natural disaster. We do go into natural disasters in areas where there is armed conflict at the same time. For example, you mentioned the earthquake in Pakistan in 2005. We were in there with 11 helicopters. However, in the context of Myanmar, the area that the cyclone hit is not an area of armed conflict. There is armed conflict in other areas of Myanmar, but we do not have access to them.
We have offered the Government of Myanmar certain activities where we have a special competence in the framework of the cyclone disaster. They know that. At least one of our offers has been accepted so far. I would not like overdo our role in that context. It is a small operation compared to Sudan or Iraq.
Major General Aye Myint
I would like to answer all the questions in general. We are trying our best for relief, resettlement and rehabilitation of our storm victims because they are our people. However, you have to understand that every process will not be totally perfect. As I explained earlier, we are welcoming assistance and aid from any country or organisation around the world without any politicising and without any preconditions. On these terms, there is no objection to foreign aid workers and international NGOs entering for this purpose. I believe that the resettlement and rehabilitation processes will be speedy, as the ASEAN task force works with the UN and with Myanmar’s central coordinating body to facilitate the effective distribution and utilisation assistance from the international community.
Dr John Chipman
We can perhaps carry on the discussion in private with some of the people who have raised points of interest. I would like to thank the four panellists for their interventions in this meeting.
